The following interview was conducted by Chem – the original post can be found here as well as a soon-to-be-added audio version
Alright, so before we get into the questions, lets start with a bit of your background. When would you say you were most active in the bodybuilding scene?
I started lifting when I was 14 but when I was 19 I did my first cycle. This was in 1981, I was born in ’62. I did one bottle of Anadrol. Syntex, the stuff nobody could find. It was the red label bottle, the real shit.
So you were 19, what was it, 50 tabs?
It was 100 tabs. I did one a day, I didn’t taper upper up, I didn’t taper down, I didn’t take anything else. This guy from the gym just said, because I was tall and skinny (6’2, 195lbs), he just said ‘Do you want to put some size on?’ ’cause I worked at the gym and everyone liked me there (this was in Phoenix) and I said yeah, so he threw me a bottle of that Anadrol and he said just take one a day until they’re gone. I put on 30lbs of fairly good muscle weight, and I put 100lbs on my bench. So I went from benching 145 to 245, I had a really weak bench because I was so lanky.
When you were doing this, where were you living at the time?
Phoenix. I was basically in Phoenix from ’81 until ’95. That’s when my kid was born. So I was in Phoenix pretty much 14 years, and that was probably the height of my bodybuilding. I got ready for the Phoenix twice. That was when I was going to Gold’s in Venice for a couple years and I was taking it the most serious for competition, anyway.
What were the typical stacks that people would use back in the day?
Back in the day, Dbol was number one, everybody did Dbol because it was the easiest to find. Girls would do Anavar, guys would do Dbol. Anadrol was another thing, but when people were starting to stack stuff we would do Deca. Everybody did Deca as your base thing for joints, and then you would do a good oral, and then either Sustanon 250, everybody liked Sustanon, and then if you didn’t do Sustanon they were doing Parabolan. If you could get Masteron and Parabolan, that was the most sought-after stuff. So back then, though we were working out at Golds in Venice none of us had the ability financially to afford growth hormone. And back then the growth they were getting was coming out of cadavers or they were getting it from monkeys. That was the bad growth hormone, so people these people that were getting huge (off of it) were the pro wrestlers, getting all the monkey features, ended up looking like monkeys. But the best I ever looked was in 1987, the stack was 6 months of Parabolan out of France, and then Masteron. I looked great, but I also cut the Wendy’s out, I added the diet component in. I wasn’t eating completely clean but I cleaned up probably 75-80% of my diet. But it was the Parabolan and Masteron that I looked the best on.
Without a Test base?
Without a Test base, yeah.
So back then, would a lot of guys do cycles without Test? Was that common, to just use Deca and orals?
Uh huh, yep. Because we were getting a lot of our information from bodybuilders in Golds gym in Venice. People would go to California, they’d learn a lot, and they’d come back and spread the information. Gear back then was so affordable. I had a buddy of mine who picked up a quarter million bottles of Dbol, I believe he paid $5.32 a bottle for a 100 tabs. Price wasn’t a problem. I mean, my briefcase (of gear) now is small, but back then it was 3 times the size. You had Winny, you had Equipoise, you had Finajet (this is oldschool Vet-grade Trenbolone, came in 30/50mL jugs). So you had your three hardeners. You had stuff for girls, you had stuff for guys. And then you carried Dbol, Anadrol, Anavar. And then you carried all your other stuff, Nolvadex… Mostly back then we didn’t get a lot of gynecomastia because I think the stuff that was coming out was so high quality that we didn’t get a ton of sides. You know, I heard of guys getting it and getting bitch tits cut out, but it was just guys that were taking thousands of milligrams. But then, our advice back then, people like Vinny Comerford who we were good friends with and he took third in the Olympia that one year, he just said ‘Take everything you can afford to take, your body will filter out what it doesn’t need (LOL).’ So that was kind of the attitude back then. There were people that would actually say, and I’ve heard this spoken from several huge bodybuilders, ‘Why would you ever do a 2cc shot?’, because they’d say ‘A syringe, it’s a 3cc syringe, so fill it to the top. Do everything you can, why bother with another injection site.’ So they took as much as they could possibly take.
A lot of people claim that back in the 70’s and 80’s the doses were much, much lower than what people typically use today. Again, you were talking about typical stacks, saying the Dbol, the Anadrol, the Deca. What kind of doses were we seeing with those?
Well, Anadrol was 50mg, but you were just doing one a day. If you heard of people doing two or three a day, that was pretty crazy. People just weren’t doing that very often. But then again, I knew a girl that did 6 months of Anadrol and Deca. So she did a half a tab a day of Anadrol and Deca for 6 months. Well she won Ms. Utah and she was just JACKED. She did get a lot of masculinization and stuff, but she was just beast mode. But back then people were more like, whatever their buddy would give ’em, they would just take that. So people didn’t research anything, they didn’t have the internet back then. People would come over and say ‘I’ve got this much to spend, I’ve got a show coming up I want to do, what do I need? One thing that hasn’t changed in 30 years is that I’d be like ‘Well, you’re probably gonna need three bottles of Winstrol,’ and they’re like ‘I can only afford one’. I’d say okay, just so you know there’s three there, if you can swing it you should get it, because if I can’t re-up on it then you’re shit outta luck. Because back then, the Winstrol was coming from the track, so people had either Greyhound or Horse vet Winstrol. It was vet stuff, all vet. Nobody got junk.
The Winny back then was primarily injectable?
Yeah, not a lot of oral Winny, not at all. And the girls were getting a lot of side effects off that Winny, too. That’s what we THOUGHT girls should take back then, so whe the girls were taking it and then a lot of them were getting, like, hair growth and acne and stuff like that, we were like ‘Wait, but aren’t you supposed to take this stuff?’ But again, we’d go to California, and those girls over there haven’t changed any in 30 years. They’re not super friendly, they’re not big on telling you what they take, they have some boyfriend where they basically just bend over, you know ******** (wife’s name) has met many girls who say that they just bend over and take whatever their boyfriend gives ’em, they don’t even know what they’re taking. ******** (top female competitor) up in ******** (city near ours), I mean there’s a bunch of them on the national level, fairly big time people, very smart people, very nice people, but still they just took whatever their boyfriend gave them. They put their health in somebody else’s hands.
So the Anadrol back then were 50’s, and you’d take one a day. How long were people running that for?
At least 12. 12 to 16 weeks was kind of your cycle base.
That’s a really big difference. Nowadays you see dudes just want a 4 week kickstart while their long esters build up. People freak out about longer oral cycles, but back then orals were the norm and run much longer?
And even the quantity. I’ve seen, physically witnessed with my own eyes, guys taking 100 Dbol at once. They’d pop the top off those little bottles and take 100 at one time.
The 5 milligram tablets?
Yeah, they’d take 100 at a time. But then again, Golds gym in Venice you used to walk around the bathroom, and there was syringes all over the floor. I mean, people would shoot up and just throw ’em in the trash can, they’d miss, they’d bounce on the floor. It was just so different, but then it wasn’t illegal. So for them it was just stupidity, it was more like junkies in an alley. People didn’t think of any longterm effects, people weren’t really thinking about liver damage, people weren’t thinking about ‘Well, should I add in milk thistle’, there’s a lot more of that now. We didn’t even really have nutrition stores back then, most of our protein was coming from food. A lot of us didn’t believe in the protein powders and stuff like that. The first thing that came around was the egg white protein, and then… ’98ish was when I was coming up here, and Ricky B. here in ******** (our city) was starting to get creatine from Bill Phillips.
THE Bill Phillips?!
The Bill Phillips, oh yeah. We knew Bill Phillips, Dan Duchaine, that’s where we got a lot of our juicing information from back then, from the top guys. We used to go to Dan’s place and just hang out for hours getting information and sucking it up.
We’ll have to circle back to that, I’m sure you have a ton of great stories.
Oh yeah. Well he was a crazy guy. We still don’t even know if he’s dead or not, a few us think he faked his death to avoid going to prison.
So the Dbol then, would you say a typically dose would be like 25 to 30 milligrams?
Typical dose for somebody back then who was just looking to put size on, yeah, you’d put them on 25 to 30 milligrams a day.
The Deca, that was, what, the Organon 100 milligram amps?
And what was that, two to three amps a week?
Two to three amps a week.
Alright, a lot of people were asking about Tren. Everybody wants to know about Tren. Everything is about Tren nowadays. So, first of all, your thoughts on Trenbolone, and how common was it?
Tren was rare back then. Tren was rare. People were so satisfied if they could find Parabolan and Masteron. So the Tren wasn’t something people really even went after, it was exotic.
How expensive was gear back in the day?
Gear if you were connected was super cheap, if you weren’t connected you could pay out the ass for it. Average prices, a bottle of Dbol would be, say, $25. That was for 100 tabs of 5mg. If you were connected, we’d get ’em down towards $5, and then if you were stupid you’d pay $50-100. Pretty much like today.
So a good price for Dbol back in the day was $5.
$5, but you’d have to get probably…. a thousand bottles.
What about on a single-unit level, like your buddy moves shit and he’s giving you the hookup prices.
You’d probably get it for $12 to $15.
I don’t think Test E in vials was a thing back then, it was just Sust. What were prices like for that?
$10 per box of amps, they came 3 to a box. So about $3 an amp.
Deca at 200mg/mL?
That… that kind of was all over the board, probably $40-50 would be a midrange price, could go as high as $100. And I had a thing where it was just everything was $100, no matter what you wanted.
The Organon Deca amps, were those more expensive than a bottle of Deca 200?
Yeah, that was more like $75 for a 10-pack of amps. And sometimes you had to pay closer to $100 just because of how limited the supply was.
Masteron — was there pharma Masteron around then or was it all UGL?
What would a bottle of that run?
If you could get it, you could pay…. that, that was basically just a bidding war. If somebody had Masteron and Parabolan it would go into a bidding war.
And what would those sometimes climb up to?
Oh you could pay $20 an amp (a lot of the UGL Mast back then was amps too, apparently), yeah. ‘Cause you wanted it. You were only using one a week.
People were only using one amp of that Mast a week?
Yeah, you’d do one amp of Masteron and one amp of Parabolan, it was a Monday-Thursday deal. And you had guys getting incredible results.
So one 100mg amp of Masteron and one 76mg Amp of Parabolan and dudes were–
And they were also taking… so you’d be taking Deca with that, and you were also taking daily Dbol.
Ahhh, alright. So about 200-300mg of Deca, 25mg of Dbol daily, and then the amp of Mast and Parabolan?
Right, and that was a top cycle back then if you could get the Parabolan and Mast. So you’d be looking at 600-700mg a week. Top guys were getting closer to 2,000mg a week.
Has the quality of gear changed?
Oh 100%. It’s shit. It’s not even close.
What do you know now that you wish you would have known sooner?
That cardio is a waste. Your diet is much more important. If I could go back and change anything, it would be heavy squats. Unless your training for powerlifting, it’s just going to wreck your knees. Training abs was a waste, abs are just diet.
So you talked about gyno not being as prevalent, what was AI use like back then? There was no Aromasin, there was no Arimidex, people were just using Nolva, right?
People were just using Nolvadex. But Nolvadex was so strong it would take care of it. I had gyno one time, a pretty big lump the size of a large marble and I took Nolva and it was gone.
And was that something that people would take anytime they took gear or was it only used if there was a problem.
Only if there was a problem.
What were the actual cycles pros from that era were running? I think you had said close to 2,000 milligrams.
2,000 from what Vinny (Comerford) told me, most of the stuff from Vinny, he said he was taking about 2,000mg a week. He said that would take something every single day, he didn’t like taking a day off.
So the 2,000 milligrams, what would that be of?
Probably 500mg of Deca, and then you’d probably throw another at least 75-100mg of orals. Anadrol or Dbol, or if they were on a cutting cycle, Anavar and Winstrol.
So you’d be looking at like 50mg of Anadrol stacked with 30mg of Dbol for bulking.
And then for cutting maybe 1cc of Winny a day with some Var?
So half a gram of Deca, half a gram of orals, and then the rest of it would just be however much Sust they could afford?
How much ever Sust, how much ever Parabolan, how much ever Primobolan, how much ever whatever type of drug they could add to that. Whatever they could get access to or afford.
What was the most gear you’ve ever ran?
1,500 a week. One Anadrol a day, two cc of 200mg Deca a week, three 3cc of Sustanon 250 a week. I have also run 1cc of Sust a day.
Now you talked about the Mast and the Tren being the best you ever looked, was that your favorite cycle?
Yeah, and I only got it a couple of times but that’s when I looked the best.
And what were the dosages like?
We would do 3 shots a week of each.
So 300mg of Masteron and about 220-230mg of Parabolan. And that was without a Test base?
Yeah, without a Test base. And then I think we were using… probably Winny or Equipoise. Actually, I think we were using the Winny at first and we were starting to have some erection problems and we switched to Equipoise
So in total, 300mg of Masteron a week, 230mg of Parabolan, and then 50mg of Winny a day which you switched to 50mg of Equipoise a day?
Did most people (and I’m assuming I know the answer to this) cycle or blast and cruise?
It was all cycles.
Was Primo as common as people make it out to be back then?
It was expensive and it was hard to get. It mainly was used for people who did contests, near the show.
How did people train?
It was all over the place. People would try anything. We had Chest Tri, Back Bi, Shoulders Legs, bodypart training, two a days, fullbody, really it was all over the board.
Do you think that bodybuilding was a good use of the limited time you have on earth?
Horrible, horrible waste of time.